Comments on: The Desktop is Gooey http://www.pathf.com/blogs/2007/12/the-desktop-is/ Running commentary about agile development, user experience design and Ajax. Thu, 08 Jan 2009 14:42:05 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Ray Cromwell http://www.pathf.com/blogs/2007/12/the-desktop-is/#comment-185 Ray Cromwell Wed, 12 Dec 2007 06:26:10 +0000 http://www.pathf.com/blogs/?p=148#comment-185 <p>I don't think anyone would disagree that separation of concerns is a good think (content vs style vs logic), nor that CSS/XSL/DSSSL and other style mechanisms are good designs, but one can simultaneously hold that an idea is good, but that implementation(s) suck(s) ass. (BTW, GWT uses CSS for styling)</p> <p>Even if you have a library which "eliminates almost all" (I'll get to that in a second) DOM/event/Javascript issues, the reality is, CSS implementations are fubared on every browser too. I bet if quirksmode didn't exist, the average developer could not get cross-browser CSS right. So the simplicity of change has to be weighed against the complexity of test-and-fix-everywhere.</p> <p>As for fixing browser bugs with libraries, I don't know of any widget library that truly fixes all memory leaks on IE6(except for GWT), so how is anyone but the most expert Javascript ninjas supposed to develop complex and long running AJAX apps, like GMail?</p> <p>No developer has ever told me that they hate the Web model, hate browsers, HTML, CSS, HTTP, etc. Hate is always reserved for implementations, be if MS's continued defiance of standards, Firefox's memory bloat, and general issues with performance and security.</p> <p>The world would be alot better place if browser implementors focused on spec adherence, performance, and memory, and less on rearranging Chrome. And just because a library can work around bugs and take a lowest-common-denominator approach doesn't let them off the hook.</p> I don’t think anyone would disagree that separation of concerns is a good think (content vs style vs logic), nor that CSS/XSL/DSSSL and other style mechanisms are good designs, but one can simultaneously hold that an idea is good, but that implementation(s) suck(s) ass. (BTW, GWT uses CSS for styling)

Even if you have a library which “eliminates almost all” (I’ll get to that in a second) DOM/event/Javascript issues, the reality is, CSS implementations are fubared on every browser too. I bet if quirksmode didn’t exist, the average developer could not get cross-browser CSS right. So the simplicity of change has to be weighed against the complexity of test-and-fix-everywhere.

As for fixing browser bugs with libraries, I don’t know of any widget library that truly fixes all memory leaks on IE6(except for GWT), so how is anyone but the most expert Javascript ninjas supposed to develop complex and long running AJAX apps, like GMail?

No developer has ever told me that they hate the Web model, hate browsers, HTML, CSS, HTTP, etc. Hate is always reserved for implementations, be if MS’s continued defiance of standards, Firefox’s memory bloat, and general issues with performance and security.

The world would be alot better place if browser implementors focused on spec adherence, performance, and memory, and less on rearranging Chrome. And just because a library can work around bugs and take a lowest-common-denominator approach doesn’t let them off the hook.

]]> By: T.J. http://www.pathf.com/blogs/2007/12/the-desktop-is/#comment-184 T.J. Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:45:49 +0000 http://www.pathf.com/blogs/?p=148#comment-184 <p>I think the real power of HTML/CSS layouts in web apps is the simplicity of change. I can write a complex Ajax app using all the browser default stylings, run and debug it, and not worry about the layout/styling at all until I know its functional. Using libraries (I use mootools) eliminates almost all of the cross browser issues, invalidating that argument. With HTML/CSS and Ajax, the GUI framework comes built into the browser.</p> I think the real power of HTML/CSS layouts in web apps is the simplicity of change. I can write a complex Ajax app using all the browser default stylings, run and debug it, and not worry about the layout/styling at all until I know its functional. Using libraries (I use mootools) eliminates almost all of the cross browser issues, invalidating that argument. With HTML/CSS and Ajax, the GUI framework comes built into the browser.

]]> By: Ray Cromwell http://www.pathf.com/blogs/2007/12/the-desktop-is/#comment-183 Ray Cromwell Tue, 11 Dec 2007 04:18:13 +0000 http://www.pathf.com/blogs/?p=148#comment-183 <p>I think by 'hating the browser', they mean the irritating experience that is modern cross-browser development. If all web browsers adhered to standard specs (IE especially) and were not the steaming pile of buggy poop we know them to be, I don't think there would be any talk of hate.<br /> </p> I think by ‘hating the browser’, they mean the irritating experience that is modern cross-browser development. If all web browsers adhered to standard specs (IE especially) and were not the steaming pile of buggy poop we know them to be, I don’t think there would be any talk of hate.

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